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	<title>Comments on: Just an Idea&#8230;</title>
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		<title>By: Tribwarrior</title>
		<link>http://quantumconservative.com/2009/07/10/just-an-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-3830</link>
		<dc:creator>Tribwarrior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jul 2009 05:45:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quantumconservative.com/?p=1408#comment-3830</guid>
		<description>jhb: first of all the reason there are only a few attacks a year anymore is Israels response to the many attacks that used occur daily. Isreal has spent millions of dollars on aid and infrastucture for the Palestinian people in the past only to have it come back to them from the sky in the form of rockets and suicide bombing on their school buses, finally reserving themselves to the only thing that would stop the incessant attacks and that was to stop the inflow of arms into said locations. 2. The rocket fire out of Gaza has basically stopped, because Isreal has had to place a wall around such location to control beyond the shadow of any doubt, what is going into these places. I agree with Salmon on &quot;Rocket fire into Israel needs to stop, and people in Palestine need to have a better quality of life.&quot; but it isn&#039;t going to happen if it is left up to the Palestinians, and Isreal is tired of the one sided agreements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jhb: first of all the reason there are only a few attacks a year anymore is Israels response to the many attacks that used occur daily. Isreal has spent millions of dollars on aid and infrastucture for the Palestinian people in the past only to have it come back to them from the sky in the form of rockets and suicide bombing on their school buses, finally reserving themselves to the only thing that would stop the incessant attacks and that was to stop the inflow of arms into said locations. 2. The rocket fire out of Gaza has basically stopped, because Isreal has had to place a wall around such location to control beyond the shadow of any doubt, what is going into these places. I agree with Salmon on &#8220;Rocket fire into Israel needs to stop, and people in Palestine need to have a better quality of life.&#8221; but it isn&#8217;t going to happen if it is left up to the Palestinians, and Isreal is tired of the one sided agreements.</p>
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		<title>By: JHB</title>
		<link>http://quantumconservative.com/2009/07/10/just-an-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-3808</link>
		<dc:creator>JHB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 04:50:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quantumconservative.com/?p=1408#comment-3808</guid>
		<description>Again, it is important to look at the facts, understand the underlying causes, and see the greater logical picture:

1.  The credit score of my neighbors does not determine whether I get a bank loan.  If you want to base lending on whether someone personally engages in violence, fine, that&#039;s your venture.  If otherwise, it&#039;s collective punishment.

2.  The rocket fire out of Gaza has basically stopped, and even if it hadn&#039;t, the 1.5 million people living there and the 2.5 million in the West Bank are not responsible for it.  

3. The Palestinians need to have a better quality of life because their quality of life has been reduced by military occupation.  The poverty of the Palestinian population is a direct result of the system of closures and checkpoints the Israeli military has forced on them and the refusal of Israel to allow investors into the West Bank and Gaza.  Economic experts generally agree that if it weren&#039;t for the Occupation, Palestinians would be one of the more thriving populations in the Middle East.  Bethlehem used to be one of the more major tourist destinations in the Middle East.  Gaza was one of the world&#039;s greatest tulip exporters.  Jeracho oranges are famous worldwide.  Nablusi soap shares an equal fame.  If you are so concerned with giving Palestinians a better quality of life, you should be advocating for an end to that which has destroyed their quality of life.  

Suggesting that loans, conditioned on crime rates no less, is the solution to Palestinian suffering is like saying Africans under Apartheid would have been fine had they only had the capital to start their own crafts businesses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, it is important to look at the facts, understand the underlying causes, and see the greater logical picture:</p>
<p>1.  The credit score of my neighbors does not determine whether I get a bank loan.  If you want to base lending on whether someone personally engages in violence, fine, that&#8217;s your venture.  If otherwise, it&#8217;s collective punishment.</p>
<p>2.  The rocket fire out of Gaza has basically stopped, and even if it hadn&#8217;t, the 1.5 million people living there and the 2.5 million in the West Bank are not responsible for it.  </p>
<p>3. The Palestinians need to have a better quality of life because their quality of life has been reduced by military occupation.  The poverty of the Palestinian population is a direct result of the system of closures and checkpoints the Israeli military has forced on them and the refusal of Israel to allow investors into the West Bank and Gaza.  Economic experts generally agree that if it weren&#8217;t for the Occupation, Palestinians would be one of the more thriving populations in the Middle East.  Bethlehem used to be one of the more major tourist destinations in the Middle East.  Gaza was one of the world&#8217;s greatest tulip exporters.  Jeracho oranges are famous worldwide.  Nablusi soap shares an equal fame.  If you are so concerned with giving Palestinians a better quality of life, you should be advocating for an end to that which has destroyed their quality of life.  </p>
<p>Suggesting that loans, conditioned on crime rates no less, is the solution to Palestinian suffering is like saying Africans under Apartheid would have been fine had they only had the capital to start their own crafts businesses.</p>
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		<title>By: salmonspartan</title>
		<link>http://quantumconservative.com/2009/07/10/just-an-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-3807</link>
		<dc:creator>salmonspartan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quantumconservative.com/?p=1408#comment-3807</guid>
		<description>This is not aid, this is lending. You can&#039;t expect a bank to give away money with no expectation of return, so there are mitigating factors. Your credit score is a nice example. I&#039;d just be using something a little larger. 

&quot;If you want to count rocket fire out of Gaza you might have more numbers to play&quot;

This is pretty much what I&#039;m getting at directly. Rocket fire into Israel needs to stop, and people in Palestine need to have a better quality of life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is not aid, this is lending. You can&#8217;t expect a bank to give away money with no expectation of return, so there are mitigating factors. Your credit score is a nice example. I&#8217;d just be using something a little larger. </p>
<p>&#8220;If you want to count rocket fire out of Gaza you might have more numbers to play&#8221;</p>
<p>This is pretty much what I&#8217;m getting at directly. Rocket fire into Israel needs to stop, and people in Palestine need to have a better quality of life.</p>
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		<title>By: JHB</title>
		<link>http://quantumconservative.com/2009/07/10/just-an-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-3805</link>
		<dc:creator>JHB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quantumconservative.com/?p=1408#comment-3805</guid>
		<description>While micro-finance has worked wonders elsewhere, conditioning it on Palestinian violence is severely flawed for several reasons.

1. It&#039;s against international law.  Withholding aid from the many in order to punish the few is Collective Punishment, which is a crime according to the Geneva Convention.  Israel engages in illegal Collective Punishment already, but that does not mean everyone else should, too.

2. It assumes Palestinian violence is a case of misbehavior, that they are acting out and can be given economic incentives not to.  Palestinian violence is in fact a direct response to the constant siege under which they have lived for the past forty years.  If Israelis were systematically impoverished, denied water, humiliated, imprisoned, denied healthcare -- if 70 Israeli woman had been forced to give birth at checkpoints, if 355 Israeli children were sitting in Palestinian jails, if over a thousand Israeli civilians had just been killed and 5,000 injured in a major air strike and invasion, if Palestinian soldiers came into Israeli homes night after night, you&#039;d see a lot more Israeli violence, too.

3. It assumes there are enough Palestinian attacks into Israel to create statistical significance.  There are maybe a half-dozen per year at this point.  If there are five this year and six next year, are you going to decrease aid by 15 percent?  Or worse, if there are none this month, and one next month, are you going to take it away entirely?  If you want to count rocket fire out of Gaza you might have more numbers to play with, except now Hamas has halted its rocket fire entirely and is actually working to halt the rocket fire of smaller groups and individuals.  Even when Hamas rocket fire was at it&#039;s greatest volume, it had a hit rate of about a third of a percent, making it more a form of protest than an attack.   

4.  It ignores Israeli violence against Palestinians, which is actually far far greater.  Since the beginning of the Second Intifada, the disproportion of Palestinian deaths to Israeli deaths has grown close to seven to one.  More Israeli soldiers have committed suicide than have died at the hands of Palestinians.  In the meantime, while there are only a handful of Palestinian attacks per year, there are Israeli incursions into Palestinian refugee camps nightly across the West Bank.  Even if you exclude Israeli military violence, Israeli settler violence against Palestinians is far more widespread than Palestinian violence towards Israelis, including burning olive groves, throwing rocks at children, beatings, pouring bleach on Palestinians, throwing garbage and glass bottles, and murder.  Most of these are a several-times-daily occurrence in the Old City of Hebron, as reported by the Temporary International Presence in Hebron, a neutral international organization with a mandate from both the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority to monitor the situation there for the past 15 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While micro-finance has worked wonders elsewhere, conditioning it on Palestinian violence is severely flawed for several reasons.</p>
<p>1. It&#8217;s against international law.  Withholding aid from the many in order to punish the few is Collective Punishment, which is a crime according to the Geneva Convention.  Israel engages in illegal Collective Punishment already, but that does not mean everyone else should, too.</p>
<p>2. It assumes Palestinian violence is a case of misbehavior, that they are acting out and can be given economic incentives not to.  Palestinian violence is in fact a direct response to the constant siege under which they have lived for the past forty years.  If Israelis were systematically impoverished, denied water, humiliated, imprisoned, denied healthcare &#8212; if 70 Israeli woman had been forced to give birth at checkpoints, if 355 Israeli children were sitting in Palestinian jails, if over a thousand Israeli civilians had just been killed and 5,000 injured in a major air strike and invasion, if Palestinian soldiers came into Israeli homes night after night, you&#8217;d see a lot more Israeli violence, too.</p>
<p>3. It assumes there are enough Palestinian attacks into Israel to create statistical significance.  There are maybe a half-dozen per year at this point.  If there are five this year and six next year, are you going to decrease aid by 15 percent?  Or worse, if there are none this month, and one next month, are you going to take it away entirely?  If you want to count rocket fire out of Gaza you might have more numbers to play with, except now Hamas has halted its rocket fire entirely and is actually working to halt the rocket fire of smaller groups and individuals.  Even when Hamas rocket fire was at it&#8217;s greatest volume, it had a hit rate of about a third of a percent, making it more a form of protest than an attack.   </p>
<p>4.  It ignores Israeli violence against Palestinians, which is actually far far greater.  Since the beginning of the Second Intifada, the disproportion of Palestinian deaths to Israeli deaths has grown close to seven to one.  More Israeli soldiers have committed suicide than have died at the hands of Palestinians.  In the meantime, while there are only a handful of Palestinian attacks per year, there are Israeli incursions into Palestinian refugee camps nightly across the West Bank.  Even if you exclude Israeli military violence, Israeli settler violence against Palestinians is far more widespread than Palestinian violence towards Israelis, including burning olive groves, throwing rocks at children, beatings, pouring bleach on Palestinians, throwing garbage and glass bottles, and murder.  Most of these are a several-times-daily occurrence in the Old City of Hebron, as reported by the Temporary International Presence in Hebron, a neutral international organization with a mandate from both the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority to monitor the situation there for the past 15 years.</p>
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		<title>By: salmonspartan</title>
		<link>http://quantumconservative.com/2009/07/10/just-an-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-3801</link>
		<dc:creator>salmonspartan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 11:01:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quantumconservative.com/?p=1408#comment-3801</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m trying to think of something. I know QC thinks it&#039;s a shit idea, but he doesn&#039;t seem to consider that none of the aid money going towards Palestine actually goes to Palestinians. Economic incentives are all that really works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m trying to think of something. I know QC thinks it&#8217;s a shit idea, but he doesn&#8217;t seem to consider that none of the aid money going towards Palestine actually goes to Palestinians. Economic incentives are all that really works.</p>
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		<title>By: Tribwarrior</title>
		<link>http://quantumconservative.com/2009/07/10/just-an-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-3799</link>
		<dc:creator>Tribwarrior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:13:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quantumconservative.com/?p=1408#comment-3799</guid>
		<description>Sorry however; the idea just might work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry however; the idea just might work.</p>
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		<title>By: salmonspartan</title>
		<link>http://quantumconservative.com/2009/07/10/just-an-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-3797</link>
		<dc:creator>salmonspartan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 16:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quantumconservative.com/?p=1408#comment-3797</guid>
		<description>Way to take a positive approach. Very clever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Way to take a positive approach. Very clever.</p>
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		<title>By: Tribwarrior</title>
		<link>http://quantumconservative.com/2009/07/10/just-an-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-3796</link>
		<dc:creator>Tribwarrior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:07:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://quantumconservative.com/?p=1408#comment-3796</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry what area is Palestine in again? I know there are Palestinians, but I didn&#039;t know there was actually a Palestine just yet. I google earthed and could find no such place. sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry what area is Palestine in again? I know there are Palestinians, but I didn&#8217;t know there was actually a Palestine just yet. I google earthed and could find no such place. sorry.</p>
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